Monday, February 27, 2012

16" Is Too Hard? Daisy Peel Foundation Class

This last week for our Daisy Peel foundations course we started one jump exercises - from Linda Mecklenburg's book. 
Our first try at the exercise was Ok.  Then our 2nd one we had TROUBLE and it was BAD.  And I felt sad for Tibby and frustrated.  Daisy told another student to let their dog work through the higher height and let the bar fall on their head, so they will figure out that going under the bar doesn't get them a click/treat.  She said to just be patient and let them work it out.  So I followed that advice.

I would really, really appreciate it if you all would watch the video below  - I know it's way long -  you don't have to watch the whole thing!  Our session goes waaaaay downhill at 2:20.  So skip to there.

I think 16" is too hard for Tibby?  She wouldn't even jump for roast beef.

Our 2nd try at the one jump exercise.

Video One - Our first try at one jump exercises.

Daisy told me our session was too long and I should try the exercise in new places.



Tabatha F said...

Is 16" her full jump height? First, I would be keeping the sessions shorter and more exciting. I liked the second video where she was getting a bit crazy for the toy. :)

I also don't see the need to increase the jump height until more value has been transferred to the jump and she is really excited about jumping.

She was into it at first, but then it kept getting harder and harder (with more height), causing her to shut down.

I haven't read the Mecklenberg jumping book, but I am training my pup with Susan Salo's jump grids. Salo really emphasizes that height is the last thing you should worry about when teaching jumping. Which makes sense, seeing that they have to learn proper form first and build up muscles that they aren't used to using.

I also love Trkman's philosophies on should be all about fun!

I have to say though that I love your videos, I've been lurking on your blog for a while (I'm also training running contacts currently). :)

Helen said...

I'm no expert but maybe Tibby finds it a little hard to go from a stand right in front of the jump (at least until she knows she can do 16"). I used Susan Garrett's Success with One Jump DVD with Beckett, not sure she uses a standing start like that initially. For my little female Ceilidh, 16" was too hard, but I think she had a depth perception problem with her eyes.

Catalina said...

Tabitha - Thank you so much! That's exactly what I was looking for - advice :)
I think she needs to work up to 16" too, but the lesson plan said to keep moving the bar up until the dog tried to go under the bar, so they would realize that that wouldn't get them a click.

IDK if Tibby really needs to learn that? She already knows that going over is the I think she was just saying, "Hey this is too hard."

Yeah 16" would be her jump height in some venues and 12" in others. She can easily do 16" in extension, but collection is another story.

P.S. Adding your blog to my reading list!! I love finding new blogs to read!

Diana said...

Yea I agree with everyone. Jumping from a stand still is very hard and tiring. I think your dog was worn out by the time you got to 16 inches. Give it a break for a couple of days and try again. Very short session. I would start the next session where she was last successful. Get a high value reward and get her excited to be working. She may think this is boring.

I dont know if you have Linda M. book but it states, "Because jumping from a stand still is strenouous physical activity, I must be careful not to do too much at once. I always want to end a session with my dog wanting to do more"

"Once my dog has done several successful repetition, I raise the bar. Increments of 2" to4" are approprate for most dogs but smaller dogs should have smaller increments. After several successful repetiiton at each new height, I raise the bar again"

"If my dog has two failures in a row, I drop the bar back down to the level where he was last successful and begin again"

I hope this helps.

Newdrim said...

Hi, I've been lurking on your blog for a while :) I trained with Silvia Trkman, so I know her philosophy and I am also quite interested in Linda Mecklenburg's DJS, so I have some idea of what the beginning exercises look like.
First of all, I understand that LM says we should reward with food & not get the dog excited, but thoughtful. It's a different opinion from Silvia Trkman, but I respect it. Now to the videos :)

I think she jumps lovely when working for food :)

Watching first video I was already wondering if she got a bit tired and then at 1:27 Tibby went away to sniff. This exercise can be very tiring for a dog who is not used to use their rear much. We never want to train so long that the dog would start to fatigue. I know it's easy to be smart when you can see the whole thing :), but I believe Tibby started to fatigue a little and increasing height only made it worse. Some dogs will be able to do more repetitions and some less, but remember this can be hard to do.

Lindas instructions for this exercise (in her book Developing Jumping Skills) are to increase jump height when the dog is confidently performing at lower height. From what I could see Tibby was not ready for 16" yet, because she had quite a lot hesitation at 14". Do you see the nose touch at 2:37? Linda describes this as assesing the height of the bar.

So what I would do is give Tibby a few days off from all jumping so that her muscles can recover (if you wouldn't be in a class I would suggest a two weeks off to help her forget as well). Then when she is rested and hungry I would start again at 10" and if it goes well do only a few repetitions before increasing height to 12" and so on. Then I would stay at 12" until she wouldn't think twice about jumping (like she doesn't think much at 10" in the first video). Then increase to 14" and again stay there until she isn't stopping and thinking about whether to jump or not.

When she'll be comfortable at that height, 16" won't be such a big deal anymore. She will probably still hesitate because that is higher than her withers, but since she will be confident in jumping 14" she will eventually jump 16" as well. Also if you can set the jump to 15" before you go to 16" it would help.

I wouldn't do Linda's jumping work with toys. The jumping that you got with a toy was not thoughtful enough for Linda's training system. She had a lot of focus in the first video, but she lost it due to frustration. Give her some a few days off, then try again. Perhaps training a different room would help to lessen the association.

An extra tip: the next time she wanders off I suggest you end the session and rethink. If nothing else her legs will get a break from jumping and you will have time to think clearly. It's hard to change a strategy mid-session. And if you manage to end the session before she wanders off, bonus points for you! :)


Catalina said...

Andreja - I should be paying you for this class! :D Thank you! Very good points - I also thought she looked like she was having trouble at the lower height. I wanted to quit earlier, but on a prev. video when I thought Tibby was giving up I was told that she was just thinking and to give her time.
I should just listen to myself!!

Thank you so much - seriously your comment explaining about assessing the height of the jump was very good instruction.

Catalina said...

Diana - Thank you for pointing that out! That's exactly what I was looking for - someone that has read Linda's book and could explain what I'm doing wrong. I have the Linda's book (it was required for the class), but every time I read it I see something new (that I'm doing wrong!).

I also think Tibby finds it a boring excercise - I'm going to stick to our under 3 min. training time rule from now on - no matter what people say!!
Thanks for your comment and help :)

Newdrim said...

Thanks :) Are there many different breeds in that class or mainly Border Collies? After looking at the video #1 I find it really weird that someone would say you just need to wait her out...

Anyway, you are on your way now. I'm sure Tibby will get to full height without a problem, just keep sessions really short (even shorter than 3 minutes if necessary).

- Andreja

Catalina said...

Andreja - Yup there are a lot of border collies, but there is also one Malinois, a couple labs and a smooth fox terrier.

I will try to keep the sessions super short. I'm a little bit afraid to try again :O

Loretta Mueller said...

Everyone else beat me to it :-) That's what I get for going on vacation! LOL

for SURE shorter lessons...and yes just let her tell you when you should raise it...I have read LM and apply all her jumping skills to my own is TOUGH WORK. So I'd say, count out, 6 6 jumps...then do something else...she will build up strength with no issues :) She's doing great! And teaching you some valuable stuff too!!